|
Transcript from RITA COSBY LIVE & DIRECT
Aired Tuesday, August 9, 2005
Subject: Jurors from
Michael Jackson Case
|
|
ANNOUNCER: From
MSNBC world headquarters, here is Rita Cosby.
RITA COSBY (host):
Well, we just heard from two other Jackson jurors,
Katharina Carls and also Mike Stevens. Joining us now is criminal
defense attorney Roy Black and Court TV news anchor Catherine Crier for
reaction.
Catherine, I've got to go to you. First of all, this was pretty
stunning, I thought. You know, now we have a third juror who's saying,
"I believe Michael Jackson is a child molester."
CATHERINE CRIER, COURT TV NEWS ANCHOR:
Absolutely. I think this
is pretty disconcerting for someone who spent all these years in the
criminal justice system. I'm very, very uncomfortable with all of these
jurors, Rita.
Great interviews on your behalf, but, in fact, these people ought
to know -- just watch "Law and Order," for God's sake -- that you go to
the bailiff if there's a problem, you go to the judge if there's a
problem. But the foreman of a jury does not kick anyone off. And for
them to basically sell out so easily, I find very troublesome.
COSBY: And Roy, what is your reaction? I mean, you know, first on
the issue of Katharina Carls, who we just heard, because she said,
"Look, I do think he's a child molester, but based on the letter of
law," she at least looked at the things -- you know, theoretically
looked through the steps and she still said, "That's it."
This was a responsible juror, in that sense, from the letter of the
law, correct?
|
|
ROY BLACK, CRIMINAL
DEFENSE ATTORNEY:
Absolutely. You have to
give her a lot of credit, despite her personal feelings. And I'm sure
what happened, that she thought the earlier testimony from '93, '94, '95
was pretty compelling, but the actual accusations in the case were so
weak that it certainly wasn't proven beyond a reasonable doubt. So you
have to give her credit to be able to sift the good from the bad. |
COSBY: Catherine, on the other hand, you
know, the two jurors who
I did interview yesterday just talked about intense pressure in the jury
room. You know, the older lady said this -- and, in fact, Katharina
Carls confirmed to us, indeed, some of these statements were made.
And what the juror said to me was, "Walk a day in my shoes." You
know, maybe you and I might not have caved, but they said, "How can you
say that? You're not 79 years old," you know, "You didn't just lose
your friend, go in and just be very emotional in the jury room."
CRIER: I still have a real problem with that. What Roy said is
absolutely correct. When I first heard the verdict of the jury -- I
mean, I understood, having watched all the testimony, that there were
real questions about the credibility of the accuser's mother,
particularly, which reflected on the accuser. And you can understand a
not-guilty verdict.
But, in fact, if two or more of the jurors simply, quote, "caved"
because they some how felt intimidated, particularly when you look at
Ray -- I mean, this isn't just -- and this grandmother did not strike me
as some lily-livered soul, when she came out there during the initial
jury conference, and said, "Well, you know, that woman was wagging her
finger. Don't you wag your finger at me, lady."
She came across as pretty tough. And, in fact, if they somehow,
you know, caved because they felt, quote, "intimidated," then I think
that's a real blow to the jury system.
COSBY: And what is the lesson for the jury system, Roy? I mean,
do you think some people are going to take something away from this and
change what they do when they go in the jury room? |
|
BLACK: Well, Rita, I'm reminded of a
statement by Teddy Roosevelt
about one of our Supreme Court justices. He said, "That man has a
backbone carved out of a banana." And that's what we have with these
jurors.
I mean, if they really believed that he was guilty, these threats
should not have been enough to change their minds. I'm going to go to
the judge? Well, what's wrong with going to the judge? I mean, you
should be happy somebody should go to the judge or the bailiff.
Listen, let's face it. In almost every jury deliberations, they're
going to get high-spirited and yelling at times. I mean, that's just
what happens in a discussion among people. You shouldn't cave in if you
really have a firm belief in guilt or innocence.
So I'm sorry, but I'm not particularly impressed with the integrity
of these jurors. |
COSBY: Well, Roy Black and Catherine, we
thank you both very much,
two of the best in the business. Thanks for being with us tonight.
CRIER: You bet. |
|
BLACK: Thank you, Rita. |
|